Welcome back, Mrfun!

Mrfun,  Okay, Glad to see you back!  I was intending to answer the other issues, one by one, even if you didn’t return; but it is a lot more rewarding and productive to get good feedback. 

I don’t consider myself to be an “evolution denier.”  I will get back later, when I have more time.  When getting into a discussion about evolution; first we need to explain exactly what we mean by the term “evolution”.  I’ll explain later.  I also will check out the “fundamentalist Christian grandmother letter”, you bring up here.

I suppose you might call me a “fundamentalist Christian,” but that takes some explanation also.  I don’t really label myself anything but  “Christian.”  I am not a Catholic, nor of any protestant denomination.  I identify only with Christ’s church, of the Bible New Testament, which began in 33AD on the day of Pentecost in Jerusalem. See the book of Acts. 

 A lot of huge  errors go on in the name of “Fundamentalism Christian.”  Preaching a “young earth” (as “the Bible (supposedly) proves, or says”) is only one of many examples of false statements made by many preachers.  It’s really scientists vs. preachers, not science vs. the Bible.

About the Qur’an, the reason I had said, “compare the Bible with the Qur’an,” is because it is  clearly obvious that the Muslim Holy Prophet Muhammad, was not a true prophet or messenger of God, like the Muslim faith proclaims, and who the mature, and also  deceived young,  Muslims are willing, and eager to kill themselves along with as many good and innocent people as they can, who do not accept the  Muslim faith for themselves.  I don’t understand terms, such as ‘Muslim extremists,’ when it is clear that what these Muslims are doing  is simply obeying and  following what is written down for them  in the Qur’an, which Muslims consider to be the precise and exact word of God (Allah) word for word, as dictated to the Muslim Holy Prophet Muhammad.  

 One of the first tests of a true prophet from God, is that the prophet, who speaks for God, is NEVER wrong.  Muhammad was wrong almost all of the time.  Muhammad clearly reflects mans’ ignorance at the time he lived, about science and nature, as in the parts of the Qur’an that you quoted.  And, I can quote you many more.  When I asked a Muslim, in my forum at the Daily Record, about that, –he had no rational answer, other than to deny the validity of science itself. You will not find  untrue like statements in the Bible.  If creation is of God, than certainly God knows His own handiwork.  Remember, the Bible is not written to be a science book, such as proving to man that the earth is a sphere and not flat.  Even though the people at the time thought that the earth was flat, along with all kinds of other false beliefs, the Bible makes no such false statements. The point I meant to make, is that you won’t find  false statements in the Bible, like we find in the Qur’an and other so-called holy books, — that in these modern times everyone, even with the slightest education, clearly can see the obvious ignorance , in so many statements in these early books of men, claimed to be of God.  The Bible is the only book that stands up over the years of time and testing.. 

Some preachers today, claim to be modern day prophets.  These are also false prophets.  (See Hebrews 1:1-2).

Later Gator, –dc

ARDI Proves What? –What Makes Us Human?

 ARDI proves what?

Well, first of all ARDI proves that what has been force fed to our children in public schools for so long now, has been wrong.

In the scientists’ own words, ARDI definitely proves that humans did not evolve from apes or chimpanzees. That is the ‘hard proof’ that they have discovered and proved.
 
Everything else remains conjecture, speculation and theory.

I don’t know what they are talking about, or referring to for sure, when they say that their ‘hard evidence’ dispels those “fairy tales and myths.”  If they are referring to the Bible Genesis account of creation, I see nothing in their discoveries of ‘hard evidence’ here that would dispute the Genesis account.

What makes us human?

Have they really proven that humans are no different from the animals, and that humans just evolved into what we are today by chance from lower life forms? Is it because we walk uniquely, like ARDI did; –is that really what makes us human? –dc

　

 

What Makes Us Human?

We live in an age of incredible technological growth. I can remember when my school system brought me the first small computer that I had ever seen. It was a Commodore and the only language that it knew was BASIC. I learned the language and wrote my own programs for my students because there was no commercial software available. My students were absolutely entranced with this machine that would drill them on factual material that they were supposed to be learning. Writing the programs took hundreds of hours. It took over 15 minutes for the computer to load the programs even though they were very simple, and you could only put one ten question drill in the computer at a time because the memory of the computer was only 10,000 bits. You used a cassette to load each program in. I remember hearing about an “Apple” computer that was going to be so much better, but I doubted I would ever see one in my teaching career.

One day I had my students working on a project on the computers and I noticed one of the young ladies with her back to the computer in what teachers call the “pout position.” She was obviously not a happy camper and was giving me all kinds of body language that indicated she did not like what was going on. “What’s the problem Sandy” I asked. “I hate this” she replied. “What is there to hate?” I asked, “You get a chance to learn without having to listen to me!!” “That’s exactly the point,” she replied “No matter how smart this dumb machine is, it still isn’t human!!” In the years since that incident I have found large numbers of students with the same reaction. In our age of technological advancement and incredible machines, it is important to keep in mind what makes us human.

 

INTELLIGENCE

It is not intelligence that sets man apart. The things that man does that really make him different are not related to his IQ. Retarded people do everything that brilliant people do. Having a son that has a high level of retardation and is living with a group of seven people who share his disabilities, I am in constant contact with people who do not score well on IQ tests. These people are still a joy to be with. The laugh, they cry, they create art, they sing and enjoy music, they appreciate beauty, they feel guilt, they have sympathy, they have a need to feel self worth, they worship God and constantly express a spiritual dimension, and they bring great things into the lives of others in a constantly changing and varied way.

In the animal world, we find animals that have very high intelligence. Whales, porpoises, and some apes have been shown to have high reasoning ability and are able to solve problems. Some researchers have placed the IQs of whales and gorillas in the 90s–which is within the range of normal humans. Anyone who has worked with animals extensively knows that they have very high capabilities and do some amazing things. Animals function primarily through a highly developed application of instinctive drives. These instincts function remarkably as long as the animal is in an environmental situation that matches the design of the instinctive drive. The more scientists study animal behavior, the more they realize just how sophisticated and intricate these instinctive drives are. One of our ecological problems is that when man changes the environment in which the animal has been functioning, the animal has a hard time adjusting to the new environment and is frequently threatened with extinction. There are countless examples of this problem–salmon swimming up dammed or polluted rivers, lemmings running off cliffs where land bridges used to be, birds unsuccessfully laying eggs in places where trees used to be, whales beaching in places where man has altered the shoreline or the magnetic pattern of the earth, etc.

 

ENVIRONMENT

One response to this discussion would be to say that humans acquire their humanness through socialization and the conditions under which they grow up. The argument is that we learn to be humans by having all the things it takes to be a human forced on us by our parents and other adults and peers through our childhood. There is no question that we learn a lot but most of those things are not what makes us unique as humans. They are mechanical things or methods that really do not have much to do with our humanness.

There have been numerous studies conducted with animals that are raised in human environments, beginning with Dr. Kellog’s studies of a chimpanzee raised with his son in a controlled environment in which both babies were given the same love, attention, stimulation, and learning opportunities. All of these studies have shown that animals raised in human conditions do not become human. The animal may learn to do some things that humans do–such as make desired responses to stimuli by entering the appropriate data into a computer; but those things that set man apart–like creativity, the ability to be taught to think, language (not communication), worship and the conceptualization of God, guilt, sympathy and compassion–do not appear in any degree. There have been numerous stories of feral children who were supposedly raised by animals, but sensationalism and lack of serious study make the claims of those who promote these cases difficult to use.

 

THE BRAIN

Another proposal that has been made is that man is unique because of his brain. The argument here is that man is an animal that has evolved more completely than other life forms, and all of our unique characteristics are a function of that biological evolution. There are numerous problems with this viewpoint. First of all it needs to be pointed out that man’s brain is not that unique. Animals like whales have brains that are considerably larger than ours. Some scientists studying the human brain have attempted to make arguments for evolution based upon the fact that other animals share brain characteristics with man. From a strictly mechanical viewpoint, the human brain has too many characteristics in common with other animals for it to be viewed as radically different and unique.

Those attempting to make arguments from an evolutionary standpoint are faced with another dilemma–the characteristics that make humans unique are not survival issues. Man’s ability to create art or to worship God are not factors that natural selection can work on to guarantee survival or predict extinction. In fact if anything, these characteristics are likely to cause the death of an individual and prevent the proliferation of his or her genes. Sociobiology finds no solace in the evidence that is available from the human brain.

 

MAN IN GOD’S IMAGE

There is a uniqueness to man that is not rooted in his intelligence, his brain, his training, or his environment. This uniqueness is seen in all of us–the genius and the severely retarded. No culture, race, educational level, IQ, or age dictates these characteristics. The one thing that does offer an explanation is the spiritual dimension of man.

The Bible tells us that man was created in the image of God. The image that is conveyed can not be a physical image or we would all look alike physically, which we clearly do not. The image that is being discussed is man’s spiritual image. Man possesses a spiritual dimension the Bible calls the soul. Jesus said in Matthew 10:28 “Fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both the body and soul in hell.” The Bible also refers to spirit in a wide range of applications including some reference to animals. It is clear from the Bible, that man possesses three entities. 1 Thessalonians states it well when the writer says: “…I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.”

To understand the three parts of man–body, soul and spirit–let us make a comparison to an automobile. I have a car which has a body. The body is physical and is made from the elements found in the crust of the earth. The body of my car will eventually return to the material from which it came. The car also has spirit. The thing that makes the car actually move is the fuel that is put into the gas tank. The fuel is the energy which makes the car able to function. These two components together will not make the car run in a satisfactory manner. With just these two working the car has no direction and is likely to cause destruction. There has to be a component which decides what the car will be used for, whether it will be driven responsibly, and how the other parts of the car are cared for.

The analogy breaks down of course, but it is not far off from our own make up. In the biblical language there are times when spirit and soul are used in ways that are not obvious mainly because of translation problems. The basics are still there and are very clear. We have a body which is dust and will return to dust. We also breath which is the basis of the energy that drives the biological machine. These two components we share with the animal world around us, and we are no different than a dog or a cat in these areas. Our soul is the spiritual component that decides how our bodies and how our energies will be used.

What makes us human is this spiritual make up. It enables us to create art and music. If gives us the capacity and desire to worship and to love in a self sacrificing way. It provides us with the ability to feel guilt, sympathy, compassion, and to be able to put others first. It is this spiritual component that enables us to relate to God and to be able to be influenced by God. Looking to this higher power that works through our spiritual make up gives us the ability to overcome drugs, destructive sexual behaviors, alcohol, pride, greed, selfishness, and all the other things that bring misery to life. We do not believe in our spiritual makeup because it is a religious tradition that has been forced upon us; we believe it because every shred of available evidence points to it and because the things that happen in life demonstrate that animal solutions do not work on problems that are spiritual in nature.

–John N. Clayton

www.doesgodexist.org

 

Joe's Worm Farm, --Free Delivery!

 

 

A Practical Man’s Proof of God

A PRACTICAL MAN’S

 PROOF OF GOD

…by John N. Clayton,  www.doesgodexist.org 

The existence of God is a subject that has occupied schools of philosophy and theology for thousands of years.  Most of the time, these debates have revolved around all kinds of assumptions and definitions.  Philosophers will spend a lifetime arguing about the meaning of a word and never really get there.  One is reminded of the college student who was asked how his philosophy class was going.  He replied that they had not done much because when the teacher tried to call roll, the kids kept arguing about whether they existed or not.

    Most of us who live and work in the real world do not concern ourselves with such activities.  We realize that such discussions may have value and interest in the academic world, but the stress and pressure of day-to-day life forces us to deal with a very pragmatic way of making decisions.  If I ask you to prove to me that you have $2.00, you would show it to me.  Even in more abstract things we use common sense and practical reasoning.  If I ask you whether a certain person is honest or not, you do not flood the air with dissertations on the relative nature of honesty; you would give me evidence one way or the other.  The techniques of much of the philosophical arguments that go on would eliminate most of engineering and technology if they were applied in those fields.

    The purpose of this brief study is to offer a logical, practical, pragmatic proof of the existence of God from a purely scientific perspective.  To do this, we are assuming that we exist, that there is reality, and that the matter of which we are made is real.  If you do not believe that you exist, you have bigger problems than this study will entail and you will have to look elsewhere.

THE BEGINNING

    If we do exist, there are only two possible explanations as to how our existence came to be.  Either we had a beginning or we did not have a beginning.  The Bible says, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” (Genesis 1 :1).  Most atheists maintain that there was no beginning.  The idea is that matter has always existed in the form of either matter or energy; and all that has happened is that matter has been changed from form to form, but it has always been.  The Humanist Manifesto says, “Matter is self-existing and not created,” and that is a concise statement of the atheist’s belief.

    The way we decide whether the atheist is correct or not is to see what science has discovered about this question.  The picture below on the left represents our part of the cosmos.  Each of the disk shaped objects is a galaxy like our Milky Way.  All of these galaxies are moving relative to each other.  Their movement has a very distinct pattern which causes the distance between the galaxies to get greater with every passing day.  If we had three galaxies located at positions A, B. and C in the second diagram below, and if they are located as shown, tomorrow they will be further apart.  The triangle they form will be bigger.  The day after tomorrow the triangle will be bigger yet.  We live in an expanding universe that gets bigger and bigger and bigger with every passing day.

 Now let us suppose that we made time run backwards!   If we are located at a certain distance today, then yesterday we were closer together.  The day before that, we were still closer.  Ultimately, where must all the galaxies have been?  At a point!  At the beginning!  At what scientists call a singularity!  In 1999, it was discovered that the galaxies are accelerating in their expansion.  Any notion that we live in an oscillating or pulsating universe has been dispelled by this discovery.  The universe is not slowing down, but speeding up in its motion.

A second proof is seen in the energy sources that fuel the cosmos.  The picture to the right is a picture of the sun.  Like all stars, the sun generates its energy by a nuclear process known as thermonuclear fusion.  Every second that passes, the sun compresses 564 million tons of hydrogen into 560 million tons of helium with 4 million tons of matter released as energy.  In spite of that tremendous consumption of fuel, the sun has only used up 2% of the hydrogen it had the day it came into existence.  This incredible furnace is not a process confined to the sun.  Every star in the sky generates its energy in the same way.  Throughout the cosmos there are 25 quintillion stars, each converting hydrogen into helium, thereby reducing the total amount of hydrogen in the cosmos.  Just think about it!  If everywhere in the cosmos hydrogen is being consumed and if the process has been going on forever, how much hydrogen should be left?

Suppose I attempt to drive my automobile without putting any more gas (fuel) into it.  As I drive and drive, what is eventually going to happen?  I am going to run out of gas!  If the cosmos has been here forever, we would have run out of hydrogen long ago!  The fact is, however, that the sun still has 98% of its original hydrogen.  The fact is that hydrogen is the most abundant material in the universe!  Everywhere we look in space we can see the hydrogen 21-cm line in the spectrum–a piece of light only given off by hydrogen.  This could not be unless we had a beginning!

A third scientific proof that the atheist is wrong is seen in the second law of thermodynamics.  In any closed system, things tend to become disordered.  If an automobile is driven for years and years without repair, for example, it will become so disordered that it would not run any more.  Getting old is simple conformity to the second law of thermodynamics.  In space, things also get old.  Astronomers refer to the aging process as heat death.  If the cosmos is “everything that ever was or is or ever will be,” as Dr. Carl Sagan was so fond of saying, nothing could be added to it to improve its order or repair it.  Even a universe that expands and collapses and expands again forever would die because it would lose light and heat each time it expanded and rebounded.

The atheist’s assertion that matter/energy is eternal is scientifically wrong.  The biblical assertion that there was a beginning is scientifically correct.

THE CAUSE

 

If we know the creation has a beginning, we are faced with another logical question–was the creation caused or was it not caused?  The Bible states, “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.”  Not only does the Bible maintain that there was a cause (a creation) but it also tells us what the cause was.  It was God. The atheist tells us that “matter is self-existing and not created.”  If matter had a beginning and yet was uncaused, one must logically maintain that something would have had to come into existence out of nothing.  From empty space with no force, no matter, no energy, and no intelligence, matter would have to become existent.  Even if this could happen by some strange new process unknown to science today, there is a logical problem.

In order for matter to come out of nothing, all of our scientific laws dealing with the conservation of matter/energy would have to be wrong, invalidating all of chemistry.  All of our laws of conservation of angular momentum would have to be wrong, invalidating all of physics.  All of our laws of conservation of electric charge would have to be wrong, invalidating all of electronics and demanding that your TV set not work!  Your television set may not work, but that is not the reason!  In order to believe matter is uncaused, one has to discard known laws and principles of science.  No reasonable person is going to do this simply to maintain a personal atheistic position.

The atheist’s assertion that matter is eternal is wrong.  The atheist’s assertion that the universe is uncaused and selfexisting is also incorrect.  The Bible’s assertion that there was a beginning which was caused is supported strongly by the available scientific evidence.

THE DESIGN

If we know that the creation had a beginning and we know that the beginning was caused, there is one last question for us to answer–what was the cause?  The Bible tells us that God was the cause.  We are further told that the God who did the causing did so with planning and reason and logic.  Romans 1:20 tells us that we can know God is “through the things he has made.”  The atheist, on the other hand, will try to convince us that we are the product of chance.  Julian Huxley once said:

We are as much a product of blind forces as is the falling of a stone to earth or the ebb and flow of the tides.  We have just happened, and man was made flesh by a long series of singularly beneficial accidents.

The subject of design has been one that has been explored in many different ways.  For most of us, simply looking at our newborn child is enough to rule out chance.  Modern-day scientists like Paul Davies and Frederick Hoyle and others are raising elaborate objections to the use of chance in explaining natural phenomena.  A principle of modern science has emerged in the 1980s called “the anthropic principle.”  The basic thrust of the anthropic principle is that chance is simply not a valid mechanism to explain the atom or life.  If chance is not valid, we are constrained to reject Huxley’s claim and to realize that we are the product of an intelligent God.

THE NEXT STEP

We have seen a practical proof of God’s existence in this brief study.  A flood of questions arise at this point.  Which God are we talking about?  Where did God come from?  Why did God create us?  How did God create us?

All of these questions and many more are answered in the same way–by looking at the evidence in a practical, common sense way.  If you are interested in pursuing these things in more detail, we invite you to contact us.  We have available books, audio tapes/CDs, video tapes/DVDs, correspondence courses, and booklets/pamphlets and all can be obtained on loan without cost.  You can get more information on what is available from our catalog online or by requesting our catalog from the address below.  Click this link for a PDF copy of this article (it will print on 8-1/2 x 14 inch paper).  You can request a printed copy of this pamphlet from:

DOES GOD EXIST?
PO Box 2704
South Bend IN 46680-2704

REFERENCES:
Glanz, James, “Accelerating the Cosmos,” Astronomy, October, 1999.
Hoyle, Frederick, The Intelligent Universe, Hol t, Rinehart & Winston, 1983.
Humanist Manifest I and II, Prometheus Books, 700 East Amherst St., Buffalo, NY 14215, 1985.

08/27/2007

Yes; Richard, –There IS a God!

Jon, (and Richard Dawkins),
Absolutely: –there is a book you can read!
There really IS a God!

“Creation–Eternal Design or Infinite Accident? ‘The SOURCE,’ by JOHN CLAYTON, and Nils Jansma,
HOWARD Publishing Co., ISBN 1-878990-89-6. Science and Faith/Faith
 

I am presenting here, following, the copy from the paper leaf cover of this hard-cover book:

Is it really possible to reconcile the facts of science and the biblical teachings of creation?

Not only is it possible, but the book you hold in your hands shows that good science is not an enemy of faith in God. In fact, the God of the Bible invites us to learn about him through his creation. The evidence in this book shows that the intellectual position of the believer is more rational and better supported scientifically than that of the atheist.

In addition to special-subject appendixes and illustrations to simplify important concepts, you’ll read chapters like:

     * The Cosmos and the Creation
     * Let the Earth Speak
     * Ask the Animals
     * What is Man?
     * The Nature of God
     * God’s Permission of Evil

After reading this book, you will see that only one conclusion can be reached: God is real, and He is the God of the Bible.

JOHN CLAYTON, is a scientist and former second-generation atheist, came to believe in God while attempting to prove that the Bible contradicts known scientific facts. Instead of disproving the Bible, he found it to be absolutely reliable. An award-winning science teacher, popularly recognized by the American Association of Physics Teachers and the National Association of Geology Teachers, Clayton has earned national prominence for his knowledge and skill in dealing with matters of faith and science. Today, Clayton travels the United States, speaking to university and church audiences some forty times a year, answering the question “Does God Exist?”

NILS JANSMA, is a practicing engineer working in San Diego, California. He has a master’s degree in both science and geotechnical engineering. At present he is enrolled in a Christian apologetics Ph.D. program.

What is the orgin of the world and of life itself?

* Did a series of ACCIDENTS and evolution bring about the world as we know it?
Or is there a design and PURPOSE behind it all?

*And if there is a design, is there an ultimate DESIGNER?

A number of years ago, John Clayton, a second-generation atheist and respected acientist and teacher, set out to disprove the Bible from a scientific point of view. Instead, his six-year study brought him to a profound faith in the God of the Bible.

Now, in this highly informative and easy to understand book, John Clayton and Nils Jansma–a geotechnical engineer and geologist–present convincing evidence that the Bible and the facts of science agree. As the public moves away from a belief in God as Creator of our heaven and earth, it becomes imperative that all believers be well informed on the vital subject. This book will become a resource you will use again and again.

“With unfailing intellectual honesty, John Clayton pierces the clouds of tradition that obscure what the Bible actually says, showing that what it says agrees with rigorous scientific facts. In The Source he shows that good Bible study and good science do not conflict. Based on his own studies, he changed from a militant atheist to a believer in the God who reveals Himself in the Bible.”
—Robert H. Towell Sr.
Consultant to Department of Energy on Transportation of Radioactive Materials.

“Clayton has the ability to describe complex scientific data and principles in ways that both educate and stimulate an open mind to rethink conventional wisdom. He then postulates an explanation that genuinely makes sense of the many unique and mysterious attributes of our world.”
—Danny C. Rich, Manager of Research: Datacolor International

“John Clayton is the best scientist I know at presenting the case for science and faith. Every Christian needs this information, in specific scientific form, as a ready resource. This book provides this much-needed help.”
—Dr. Carl Brecheen, Professor of Bible; Abilene Christian University, Abilene, Tesas.

“John Clayton is a man who pursues truth in both science and religious faith in an unusually insightful and gifted way. In my view, his ability to educate and challenge in fair, understandable, and honest ways is unmatched.”
—Richard Lee Brown, Management Consultant, Registered Professional Engineer.

In conclusion here; I will admit that I have not yet read all of Richard Dawkins’, renouned atheist, entire new book. I am familiar with his earlier books. However; I do highly respect what renouned scientist and ex-atheist John Clayton has to say about Richard Dawkins writings, along with other scientists and experts in their fields. I claim to be no expert myself, but I do have the God given ability to THINK. I am not a scientist, but I listen to scientists. I look at and consider all the evidences. Bring on your evidences, that support your faith, and let us have a look.  –dc

(John Clayton’s web-site: www.doesgodexist.org)